Hits and Misses

Hits and Misses

Friday, June 13, 2014

Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks

A reader has asked me to say something about Belgian proof marks.  I've owned two Belgian side by sides and two Browning Superposed, so I guess I can say that I have some acquaintance with twentieth century ones, but unlike my posts on antique English shotguns I don't have an antique Belgian one at hand to describe.  I'll restrict myself therefore to saying something about gun making in Belgium and offering some proof marks.  To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks:  If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information.  [Later note:  Gerhard Wirnsberger has written The Standard Directory of Proof Marks, translated byR. A. Steindler; it is available from Blacksmith Publishers Corporation.]

Because of its deposits of coal and iron ore, industrialization took place early in Belgium.  That, plus its skilled work force and their comparatively low wages, quickly made Liège a center for gun making.  Belgian firms could produce whatever was wanted at whatever price point, and the wage structure made their prices lower than their competitors.  As you might imagine, many, many Belgian guns were exported to other countries for resale.  

What I first look for are the marks indicating country of origin.  The US never had a proof house, of course, so you have to rely on maker's names--which may well be deceptive versions of famous makers  (Purdie for Purdey, for example)--and addresses (sometimes deceptive, as well).  But if the gun is a British or Continental breechloader, it should have proof marks on the water table of the receiver and on the barrel flats near the breech.

Here's an illustration of early twentieth century Belgian proofs from W. W. Greener's The Gun and Its Development, 9th edition (1910):



The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick) indicate provisional proof.  The second and third indicate it was proofed at Liège.  The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder.

Lee Kennett did a fine survey, "A History of Proof Marks:  Gun Proof in Belgium," that was published in The Gun Digest (1978).  I've reproduced Kennett's numbers in the complete list at the end of this post:




Other important marks give information about the barrels:


"70" is the metric equivalent of our 2 3/4" chamber length; many older guns of course will have some metric number like 65, equivalent to 2 1/2" or 2 9/16".  The gauge or bore is typically indicated by a "12" or "16," often accompanied by the chamber length (see Kennett's no. 33 below).

Choke is so indicated in English (why, I don't know), and it can be an indication of date:



Here is Lee Kennett's complete listing of Belgian proof marks in his "A History of Proof Marks:  Gun Proof in Belgium," published in the 32nd edition of The Gun Digest (1978), 129-138.





No small part of the Belgians' remarkable ability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete.  Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa.  Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say.  It could be of relatively recent manufacture.  Caveat emptor!  Check the proof marks! 

If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard at its quality.   Fakes and fraudulent makers' marks are not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (see my earlier post of April 20, 2014).  If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is.  As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one."  The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns:  The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, while firms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courally could make guns of very high quality indeed.  






 

32 comments:

  1. Thanks! Very helpfull once again. I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? Thanks again for the help!

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  2. Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.

    Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux’s 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridge—a cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridge—quickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.

    Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheux’s invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasn’t invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheux’s system.

    You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). Just as many muzzleloaders were converted to breechloaders—think of the Springfield trapdoor action or the British Snider—many pin-fires were converted to center-fire guns. The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.

    I don’t know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but I’d guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. Can anybody shed some light here?

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  3. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. Any idea how to date it? Thanks for any help you can offer.
    Rick dwonczyk

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    1. I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31

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  4. Hi, Rick. Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.
    Best,
    Gerry

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  5. Gerry;

    I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.

    Thanks,
    John

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  6. HI, John. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels.

    As for proof marks, the oval with E/LG/* inside makes it indeed Belgian. The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame.

    There's no indication of gauge. There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.

    The other marks I can't identify.

    So what can I tell you? Very little: I'm assuming it isn't a muzzleloader but a breechloader, which means it could be as early as 1860-1865, say. The lack of chamber length probably means it was made before 1892.

    Is there a name on it? How does it open? Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.
    Best,
    Gerry




    Best,

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  7. Hello,
    I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,★) (no crown). The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. The only other markings I have seen are along the length of thr barrel \ \/ | . Any ideas as to date range? The wood does not look ancient so I am guessing in the 1970s or so. Thanks so much.

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  8. Hi, Jeremy. Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.

    It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. Does it reach the touch hole? If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.
    Best,
    Gerry

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  9. hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please

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    Replies
    1. As I've said, I'm not an expert. The 'z' most likely is an inspector's mark indicating satisfactory quality for this part: in this case, a revolver cylinder--that's my best guess, anyway. Anyone else know?

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  10. Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver.

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  11. Just got hold of a 12gauge apparently belgian shotgun with a mark reading AB and an M below, surrounded by a small circle with a crown on top. On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". Any idea what it all means?

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  12. I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel."

    Any maker's name or place of origin?

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    Replies
    1. I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf

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    2. No maker's name at all. Thank you Jerry. I'll test it very cautiously.

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  13. Hi Gerard and everyone!
    I have got a 19th century belgian double barrel pin fire shoutgun with walnut stock(116cm). Rich engraved. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.
    Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm.
    Many thanx

    PS:. I can send pictures of it.

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    Replies
    1. Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). Pictures would help! Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?
      Best,
      Gerry

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  14. 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have

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  15. A "Greener" double? It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. Photos of the flats on the barrels and on the action would help a lot. Can you send me some, Ed? Email: ghcox3@gmail.com.

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  16. i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help

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  17. Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it!

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  18. Greetings Easthampton,
    I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.
    What leads me to your group was the “Hits and Misses” article posted in 2014’; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star “P”, which in the article you do not identify. Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? Would that appear at this location on the piece?
    What I’m attempting to do, is get this pistol appraised; thus the research to discover all the markings.

    I have a Belgium 38-40 with a 7 ½ in barrel all matching. The crown R and star P stamped on the barrel, receiver, and cylinder. I have two sets of wood handles and artillery holster with marks of 7 ½ ; 44; 105C. The blue is rough but the action works. I have not fired it. I think it was made 1890 but not sure. How do I price this piece?

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  19. Greetings Easthampton again,
    I have since, researched:
    The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 “44”. And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. (copy right L.R. Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 ½ in. Can you add any details? Or any info? Your help is appreciated.
    254.541.2985 John Hille, john@jhille.com

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  20. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. Wish I could be more helpful!

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  21. Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. It is a hammer back breakaway 12 gauge side by side. Very long barrel. I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. Any info will help. Thanks. have a great day!

    Beau

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  22. I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip

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  23. Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). "Cueruy" could be the maker. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

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  24. Hello,

    I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. The 1136 is engraved on the bottom of the barrel. I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. Do you have any information on them? I have pictures If you need them. Thanks Brandon

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  25. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. No maker's name anywhere? I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com.

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  26. What about a lightning bolt with a star above? Ever seen that? It is located just above the circle with
    E
    LG

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  27. Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. Sorry!

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